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 S.E. Palmeiras All Stars 
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Posts: 4358
S.E. Palmeiras All Stars


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COACH: :BRA: Osvaldo BRANDÃO

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GOALKEEPERS:

:BRA: Émerson LEÃO
:BRA: MARCOS


DEFENDERS:

:PAR: Francisco ARCE
:BRA: Djalma DIAS
:BRA: JÚNIOR
:BRA: José JUNQUEIRA
:BRA: Luís PEREIRA
:BRA: Djalma SANTOS
:BRA: Geraldo SCOTTO


MIDFIELDERS:

:BRA: Ademir DA GUIA
:BRA: DUDU
:BRA: Waldemar FIUME
:BRA: LEIVINHA
:BRA: Eduardo LIMA (1920)
:BRA: Jorge MENDONÇA
:BRA: ZEQUINHA


FORWARDS:

:BRA: EVAIR
:BRA: CÉSAR
:BRA: EDMUNDO
:BRA: HEITOR
:BRA: JULINHO
:BRA: LUISINHO
:BRA: Francisco RODRIGUES


__________________________________________________


RESERVES:


GOALKEEPERS:

:BRA: Valdir DE MORAES
:BRA: OBERDAN
:BRA: Wagner VELLOSO
:BRA: WEVERTON


DEFENDERS:

:BRA: ALDEMAR
:BRA: ALFREDO
:BRA: ANTÔNIO CARLOS
:BRA: BIANCO
:BRA: CLÉBER
:BRA: Gilberto FERRARI
:PAR: Gustavo GÓMEZ
:BRA: LUAN
:BRA: ROBERTO CARLOS
:BRA: Marcos ROCHA
:BRA: VALDEMAR CARABINA
:BRA: ZECA


MIDFIELDERS:

:BRA: ALEX
:BRA: AMÍLCAR
:BRA: CHINESINHO
:BRA: José DEL NERO
:BRA: DUDU (1992)
:BRA: Marcos GALEANO
:BRA: JORGINHO PUTINATTI
:BRA: OG MOREIRA
:BRA: César SAMPAIO
:BRA: TUPÃZINHO
:CHI: Jorge VALDIVIA
:BRA: ZINHO


FORWARDS:

:BRA: CANHOTINHO
:ARG: Juan ECHEVARRIETA
:BRA: EDU BALA
:BRA: JAIR
:BRA: LIMINHA (1930)
:BRA: MAZZOLA
:BRA: NEI
:BRA: OSÉAS
:BRA: ROMEU
:BRA: SERVÍLIO
:BRA: Humberto TOZZI
:BRA: VAVÁ





THE BEST EVER XI

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GK MARCOS
CB DIAS
CB PEREIRA
RB SANTOS
LB SCOTTO
DMF DUDU ©
CMF DA GUIA
AMF LEIVINHA
RWF JULINHO
LWF RODRIGUES
CF HEITOR

Captain: Dudu | Ademir da Guia | Djalma Santos
Short Free Kick: Ademir da Guia
Long Free Kick: Ademir da Guia
Free Kick 2: Julinho
Right Corner: Ademir da Guia
Left Corner: Ademir da Guia
Penalty: Djalma Santos





INFO:
https://www.palmeiras.com.br/craques/
https://www.palmeiras.com.br/pt-br/historia/
http://anotandofutbol.blogspot.com/2017 ... rte-1.html


Last edited by Interista93 on Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:54 am, edited 8 times in total.



Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:26 pm
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:00 am
Posts: 10
Well, just as an anecdote, because it's not the topic here, but to me it seems quite obvious that Ronaldo is in the 23 of Inter, Jesus, he earned the nickname of a phenomenon exactly in Barcelona and Inter. He may not be in the starting 11 because I think his performance was slightly below Barcelona's(also PSV), and also because Inter, as a European giant, had many legendary players too. Continuing on Rivaldo, I would definitely say that he is in the 23 to the detriment of Lima. Lima has, in fact, more than 400 games and a life dedicated to the club, however, based on the reports of people at the time who saw him play, the goal and assist statistics that we have access to, and even some images, such as the 1951 Rio Cup, And from the golden wedding tournament, against Barcelona-ESP, it is very clear that he is not a player at Rivaldo's level. Lima even had games for the Brazilian team and many games for the São Paulo state team, but Rivaldo was golden ball (I know, it wasn't there at Lima's time, but he certainly wouldn't be the first in any year), and he was also the best number 10 shirt for the Brazilian team in world cups after Pelé. Again, if we are just going by the guy's love for the club, for how long he stayed and so on, then we should fill the team with current players, which is the most dominant era in the club's history, result, all star team full of mediocre players and that it does not represent more than the great players. What I'm saying is that, even though Lima stayed longer than Rivaldo, Rivaldo's representation for Palmeiras is greater, because I understand that this is the result of a combo: time at the club, performance at the club, importance of the season that played, representation for the world of football and for his national team, titles. Mix all of this together, and it can be concluded that Rivaldo is bigger than Lima for the club. In the next comments I will talk about the others.


Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:15 pm
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:00 am
Posts: 10
I removed zequinha and kept dudu and fiume because they have similar levels, and so their loyalty to the club, time and such prevails. I removed a defensive midfielder because no one deserves it, right? There are already 2, Ademir was a bit of a second midfielder(8) at the time too, and the good thing is that Fiume also played at the back. But I think Fiume was a class apart from the reports, his nickname was the father of the ball, so there's no way to take it away (remembering that he doesn't compete in the world cup as he played in the 40s, an argument that doesn't apply to Lima-Rivaldo as there is a difference in level here). As for Dudu or zequinha, I prefer dudu because he is more representative for the fans, he didn't compete in the 1966 World Cup if I'm not mistaken due to injury, while zequinha was a reserve in 1962. But for me, it doesn't matter, since dudu doesn't and indisputable as it is, see the "palmeiras of all times" (in Portuguese, translate) on YouTube, in which Alberto Helena Junior (who saw everyone play, he is over 80 years old) votes for mazinho instead of cesar sampaio or dudu. He also says that there is no dispute between Servilio and Edmundo, Servilio is better by a lot, and in fact the numbers say that and the level too, since he was Pelé's attacking partner throughout the 1966 cycle, but he got injured already in Europe days before the start of the World Cup.


Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:29 pm
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:00 am
Posts: 10
About Roberto Carlos, I've kind of said it all, he's unquestionably Palmeiras' all-time left-back (and I believe in the history of football too), he played in almost half of the games he played in Real, almost 200, he has 20 goals , legendary goals and remembered to this day, he was already called up and celebrated at the time, he was in the most important team in the club's history, perhaps along with the one from 1942, which is the one that broke the 16-year fast without a miserable title, 1993. Two-time champion of the São Paulo championship (very important here for us, at a very high level until the bossman law of 1995, more or less until 2002, after that it loses value) and two-time Brazilian champion. He was also part of the 1995 team that played unforgettable duels for all Brazilian football fans, against Gremio in the Copa Libertadores. There is no comparison between him and Junior, even though the latter was a skilled full-back, quick and with perfect crossing(which I don't understand why he doesn't have a high stat here in the long pass), but he was even Roberto's own reserve in 2002 in the World Cup. With such a difference in representation and talent, and with an average difference in games (185 to 337, AND WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF GOALS), it is not possible for the junior to stay. As for Scotto, I removed him to have more places in the attack, he was very good, he made Nilton Santos move to the defender position close to the 1962 World Cup because he was afraid of losing the starting position to him (!!!), however He gets seriously injured before the World Cup and he's never the same after that.


Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:50 pm
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:00 am
Posts: 10
And lastly, I removed Romeu because he played for the club as a center forward and didn't have a goal average that high, at the same time there were some higher ones in Brazilian football. She even goes to Fluminense and is moved to midfield, where she yields more, and despite the goal average of 0.68 at Palmeiras, the one I put in his place has a better average than that. An example is Luis Mesquita, who has a slightly better average(0.75) playing on the right wing (!!!), and who who has seen it says he is the best right winger in the history of football until Garrincha arrives, and some like Oberdan, who He saw both, he even says that Luisinho was better. Luisinho started two World Cups as 11 inicial, and has more goals for Palmeiras than Romeu. It is also necessary to say that the period in which the most goals were scored, at least in the São Paulo championship (I researched them one by one), was precisely in the time of Romeu, 1930-1935, an average that dropped a lot soon after, precisely when Luisinho arrived at the team, that is, playing on the wing, with it being more difficult to score because the games were closed on defense during this period, still has more total goals and a higher average number of goals. In the starting 11, it's him or Julinho on the right wing without a doubt. About Jair, he is the first number 10 in Brazilian football, legendary, many goals but also a lot of game pace (like Zidane), holder of the 1950 World Cup, top scorer in the 1949 Copa America, which made Palmeiras take him away from Flamengo for that reason. even fighting for a place among Palmeiras' starting 11 of all time and every researcher knows this. Lastly, I think I explained about Humberto in the previous comments, no need for repetitive comments. The center forward of the starting 11 is him or heitor, both ahead of evair, cesar and mazzola who were a little below them. Artime was also magnificent but he only stayed for one season and I think that might not be enough to even stay in the reserves, even though he won an important title here and had a very high goal average. But if you want to take dudu 2015- out of the reserves to put in artime, that's no problem for me either because the difference in player is huge.


Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:09 am
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 am
Posts: 4358
Henrique dos Santos wrote:
Well, just as an anecdote, because it's not the topic here, but to me it seems quite obvious that Ronaldo is in the 23 of Inter, Jesus, he earned the nickname of a phenomenon exactly in Barcelona and Inter. He may not be in the starting 11 because I think his performance was slightly below Barcelona's(also PSV), and also because Inter, as a European giant, had many legendary players too.

When creating an all star team you should keep all the bias out. I would get even Diego Milito in Inter's first team over Ronaldo. Was Milito better than Ronaldo overall? No, he wasn't. But did he accomplish more? Yes, he did.

Henrique dos Santos wrote:
Again, if we are just going by the guy's love for the club, for how long he stayed and so on, then we should fill the team with current players, which is the most dominant era in the club's history, result, all star team full of mediocre players and that it does not represent more than the great players.

You really posted a multiple-comments-long essay. Where are the mediocre players in this team, exactly? And it looks like you still haven't figured out the format of our all star teams. This is not a journalistic website that lists the most recognizable players because it's easier and quicker to do.

Henrique dos Santos wrote:
And lastly, I removed Romeu because he played for the club as a center forward and didn't have a goal average that high, at the same time there were some higher ones in Brazilian football. She even goes to Fluminense and is moved to midfield, where she yields more, and despite the goal average of 0.68 at Palmeiras, the one I put in his place has a better average than that. An example is Luis Mesquita, who has a slightly better average(0.75) playing on the right wing (!!!), and who who has seen it says he is the best right winger in the history of football until Garrincha arrives, and some like Oberdan, who He saw both, he even says that Luisinho was better.

I already said that Luisinho is the only name that I should add. And all that "he said this, he saw him" is just bias. It may be true but also might not.


Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:10 am
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:00 am
Posts: 10
First of all, how old are you and what country are you from? Because it doesn't seem very reasonable to me for someone from a country other than Brazil to measure who is greatest in the history of a Brazilian club. Another thing, you are already defensive and hard-headed, you don't enter into a discussion without being willing to change your opinion, and I gave concrete facts and you responded immaturely, with all due respect. The name of the team is ALL STARS and not MOST FAITHFUL or MOST LOYAL PLAYERS, understand? I joined the site to contribute with my specialty, which is being Brazilian, football researcher, Palmeiras historian and fan, right? I'm not fluent in English, but if I understand correctly, you cited prejudice (bias?), that means you DIDN'T READ what I said, because everything is absolutely argued, including player by player. I speak for the thousandth time: you cannot harm a club's all star team due to a moment of financial fragility at the club or the continental scene itself. What I'm saying is that, if you are going to follow this logic of placing players based on time and loyalty to the club as a determining factor, then place 10 players from the current squad, who have been there for 7, 8 years and who are experiencing the most successful phase and dominant in the club's history. This would weaken the team, because this is the current reality. I repeat, it's ALL STARS, it's not MOST LOYAL, MOST FAITHFUL and the like. You asked which players are mediocre, I say: Galeano, Luan, Marcos Rocha, Zeca, Jorginho, Nei, Edu Bala, Oseas. All fourth shelf, it's not prejudice, it's reality. I'm trying to help the site not put nonsense here, help me help you, jair, rivaldo, roberto, servilio, tozzi, no one who researches the club's history, including the club itself, would take these out of the 23. Probably including jair, rivaldo and Roberto are in the starting 11. Be mature and don't try to change the reality of this club, don't insist on something that you are far from. And lastly, he said that he doesn't trust personal reports, well, if two players are absolutely tied in terms of their judgment when it comes to putting him on an all star team, and you hear an opinion from someone who saw both of them play, you still don't put him. no one why are they still tied? Of course not, the opinion of someone who has had proximity, expertise and knowledge should indeed be taken into consideration AS ONE OF THE CRITERIA, even you refute this as if it were my only criterion in the servilio x edmundo dispute, be honest, you know that It wasn't just that criterion. The same in Lima x Rivaldo


Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:41 am
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Posts: 4358
I can only repeat that your reasoning doesn't follow the criteria of selection of this forum. Loyalty to a club is, indeed, a factor. If you took some time to read comments by different users in the threads of other teams, you'd understand what I mean. Adding certain names only because they are those names is just lazy. And you keep bragging about you being Brazilian, a historian and so on, which will get you nowhere. Before judging someone else's work, you could at least get off your high horse. I'm no historian but you can see how many teams I posted here, both clubs and national teams. I'll never say that they look perfect or might never need some changes. I can say though that I spend days and days for each team. Whenever possible, I include some sources at the bottom of the post. I explained multiple times that as much as you mention those players, I (and not just me) consider other players to be more important and fit for the standards of this forum. But you say that I don't have an argument.


Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:05 am
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:38 pm
Posts: 2490
Henrique dos Santos wrote:
First of all, how old are you and what country are you from? Because it doesn't seem very reasonable to me for someone from a country other than Brazil to measure who is greatest in the history of a Brazilian club.


How old are you? Unless you aren't a wonder of nature and >90 years old, then how can you actually judge Jair if you didn't watch him yourself? Let alone other the players from the Palestra Italia era. You aren't? Then you have no right and no reason to put the age "argument" in that discussion. And we have no rule that only persons from the specific country are allowed to "measure" the quality and importancy of players from their country. If we'd do that, then our forum would be pretty empty.


Quote:
Another thing, you are already defensive and hard-headed, you don't enter into a discussion without being willing to change your opinion, and I gave concrete facts and you responded immaturely, with all due respect.


Don't you see the irony in your post? Interista isn't the one who isn't willed to change his opinion and responds immaturely - that's only you - and respect is something that you haven't shown so far.

Quote:
The name of the team is ALL STARS and not MOST FAITHFUL or MOST LOYAL PLAYERS, understand?


Writing in caps doesn't make your arguments better. The name of the team isn't most loyal players but it's also not "The most famous guys who spent their best years at other clubs on other continents".
Those are just three examples from your post that are nothing more than immature accusations with no argument behind them.
And considering the "discussion" in Corinthians thread: It doesn't make things better when you post insults in Portuguese - it even reduces the chances of your arguments beeing taken into consideration..


Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:37 pm
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