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 All Stars Teams & Era teams request 
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Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 pm
Posts: 593
pesman wrote:
Ok guys (girls???) post here your requests for classic teams, not anymore in classic section threads....

Also don't request 100 teams from once.


Well, as Pesman posted the Players request, I'll post this topic for the same but with teams

INDEX

Era Teams
Europe 00's | Done
Deportivo La Coruña 1999-2004 "El Eurodepor" | Done
Algeria 1982-1986 | In Progress
Queen's Park Rangers 1975-1976 | Done


All Stars
El Clásico All Stars | Done
Venezuela All-Stars | Done
Russia All Stars | Done
Football League/English Top League All Stars | Done
Arminia Bielefeld All Stars | Done
Sevilla FC All Stars | Done

Brasileirão All Stars | In progress
Argentinian Primera División All Stars | In progress
Primeira Liga All-Stars | In Progress
FIFA World Cup All-Stars | In Progress


Last edited by Cristiano_Naniano on Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 19 times in total.



Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:17 pm
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Bola Clássica wrote:
Thats what I am talking about. They are national champions for sure but they are not Brasileirão champions. Thats what I am trying to say. So, why unify titles as they were? Taça Brasil wasnt even the main competition at his time (for Fortaleza or Bahia it was, of course) but it was the only one national competition.


Oh well, of course I'm not talking about unifications, which is dumb. Even if you look at the all-time Serie A participations you will see that only seasons from 1929-30 are considered. Then, all the prior winners are considered as national championship but not Serie A title holders.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:40 pm
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The diference betwen "Copa do Brasil" and "Copa dos campeões" is simples: neither of the two competitions was created with the aim of being the biggest national championship. The Copa do Brasil was created in 1989, when there was already a Brazilian championship recognized by the CBF. Same thing with the Copa dos Campeões. It's so simple. In fact, only the teams that didn't win anything relevant at the national level in the period don't understand this. :P


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:45 pm
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Quote:
Until some politicians decided to make all Taça Brasil's champions as official Campeonato Brasileiro champions. Also, made of Rio-SP tournament (Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa), only from 1967 to 1970, when more states played, as Campeonato Brasileiro's titles. So those clubs were declared champions in the middle of the night and woke up next day as multichampions clubs.


That's the part that is not true. There are several sources from the time recognizing Santos, Bahia, Palmeiras, etc. as national champions. Santos has always declared itself a five-time Brazilian champion. When Bahia was champion in 1988, it was widely publicized as being the team's bi-championship.

Btw, you bring the 1987 championship. I agree with you. Both Flamengo and Sport can be considered champions. But I'm surprised you think so, as it really only reinforces my point. No one can take away from Flamengo the feeling of having been champion that year. It was the most difficult championship and they had a wonderful team. Just as no one can take away the feeling of having been national champion of teams before 1971.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:55 pm
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guilermerr wrote:
That's the part that is not true. There are several sources from the time recognizing Santos, Bahia, Palmeiras, etc. as national champions. Santos has always declared itself a five-time Brazilian champion. When Bahia was champion in 1988, it was widely publicized as being the team's bi-championship.

Btw, you bring the 1987 championship. I agree with you. Both Flamengo and Sport can be considered champions. But I'm surprised you think so, as it really only reinforces my point. No one can take away from Flamengo the feeling of having been champion that year. It was the most difficult championship and they had a wonderful team. Just as no one can take away the feeling of having been national champion of teams before 1971.


I believe the difference between considering those teams as national champions and considering them as winners of the Brasileirão when the Brasileirão didn't exist yet has been clarified. I also believe that when Bola talks about "politicians" he lowkey means the Brazilian federation.
Since the national federation issue has been brought to light, I mention the 1914-15 Italian Championship title assigned to Genoa after the end of the World War even though that championship was never completed. At the time, the Italian league had several groups separated by zone and the winner of each zone advanced to semi-finals and so on. The federation decided to give the title to Genoa, winner of the North Zone, meaning basically "who cares about the other zones". This, for example, was more a political rather than a sports decision.


Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:21 pm
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Yeah, I agree that Taça Brasil and Robertão are not "Brasileirão", but have the same status for me (and for CBF too). And I know that Bola is talking about the Brazilian federation, and in a way I agree with his opinion about the CBF. But on this one they got it right. They recognized what should have been recognized a long time ago.

Quote:
Since the national federation issue has been brought to light, I mention the 1914-15 Italian Championship title assigned to Genoa after the end of the World War even though that championship was never completed. At the time, the Italian league had several groups separated by zone and the winner of each zone advanced to semi-finals and so on. The federation decided to give the title to Genoa, winner of the North Zone, meaning basically "who cares about the other zones". This, for example, was more a political rather than a sports decision.


Now, THAT'S a political decision that made a team champion. All Brazilian champion teams before 1971 won the title on the field, playing football. See the difference?


Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:35 pm
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Taça Brasil 1968

Palmeiras vs. Fortaleza, the winner will play against Santos, the winner will go to the final. That was the one side of the competition.

Botafogo vs Metropol, the winner plays against Cruzeiro and the winner plays against Naútico. At last, the winner goes to the final. That was the other side of the competition.

The championship delayed made the cup finish only on the next year, because of those situations Brazil wasnt able to participate on the Libertadores of 1969 and 1970.

Also, because of that Palmeiras and Santos gave up of playing Taça Brasil 1968.

In order to not have Fortaleza directly on the final, the playoffs had changed. It becomes:

Fortaleza vs. Naútico. Fortaleza won, so they were on the final.

Botafogo vs. Metropol. Botafogo won. Botafogo vs. Cruzeiro. Botafogo won.

Final: Botafogo vs Fortaleza. Botafogo won.

Botafogo declared to be the Brasileirão champion of 1968 on 2010.

Nothing more to say. Take your conclusions.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:29 am
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What a mess huh? So what? Does taking a specific situation that happened in one year invalidate the fact that the Taça Brasil was the most important national championship before the creation of Robertão? Perhaps we should disregard the importance of the Brasileirão also because of what happened in 1987 as well. That's just non sense. Btw, in 1967 and 1968 there is already the Robertão, so in fact the Taça Brasil was not the most important tournament in national level (and because of that, maybe, we can consider it similar to the Copa do Brasil).


Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:46 pm
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I dont get your point to keep talking about 1987. 87 was one of the best championship until then, maybe the best one, the most organized.

Taça Brasil wasnt the most important national competition, Taça Brasil was the only one national competition at that time. But it was by far not the most important club competition during their days. Mainly for Rio de Janeiro's and São Paulo's clubs it was just a tournament with 4 or 6 games, not so important.

It is not about being a mess or not the main focus, it is the importance of the tournament at that time.

Just to let you know, Robertão (Roberto Gomes Pedrosa) wasnt a national competition, ok? It was a Rio-São Paulo expansion tournament. Maybe if you had read what I wrote you could learn anything. And you just gave me another point. How a non-national competition can nowadays count as a national title?

Brazilian championship started on 1971 and no politicians inside a corrupted federation has the right to change the history, the truth.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:57 pm
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You are wrong. The Roberto Gomes Pedrosa WAS Rio-SP (1954-1966). In 1967, with the inclusion of teams of Minas Gerais (and later Bahia and Pernambuco), the tornament was nicknamed Robertão ("Big Roberto" - to be fair to the national ampliation). I read your text, and that's the same bullshit I read everyday of every team that doesn't win shit at national level before 1971.

And btw, I am São Paulo, and have no national titles before 1971, I'm just not stupid to think that the national championships of the most victorious era of Brazilian football are worthless.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:35 pm
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guilermerr wrote:
You are wrong. The Roberto Gomes Pedrosa WAS Rio-SP (1954-1966). In 1967, with the inclusion of teams of Minas Gerais (and later Bahia and Pernambuco), the tornament was nicknamed Robertão ("Big Roberto" - to be fair to the national ampliation). I read your text, and that's the same bullshit I read everyday of every team that doesn't win shit at national level before 1971. :P


A 5 states competition doesnt make a country with more than 25 states a national competition. You know that? You know that Brazil has a North regiom and Center-west region that wasnt included? Should I teach you geography as well?

You are also saying shit and take it as a personal. You are so idiot that you didnt realize that I am giving more credits for Rio-São Paulo tournament, a competition that my club was the worst one. So, how could I be partial?

Quote:
And btw, I am São Paulo, and have no national titles before 1971, I'm just not stupid to think that the national championships of the most victorious era of Brazilian football are worthless.


I didnt get your point here. Because there was no important national competition during our most victorious era, should we change the Brazilian football history?

I am those kind of person that dont need to invent 6 Brasileirão titles for Pelé to know his importance and greatness. I just know he is the king with no relevant Brazilian titles.


Last edited by Bola Clássica on Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:49 pm
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https://bolaclassica.wordpress.com/2017 ... do-brasil/ oh, i found this dubious source here considering the Bahia tittles as Brazilian Champions 2 times! Funny.

And yeah, Brazil has more regions them just 5. I just don't understand how representation has suddenly become important to you. The first edition of the Taça Brasil had 16 (when there were 20 states in Brazil). In the last Brazilian championship we had 11 (and today we have 27 States). You can continue to cry. Titles were won in the field, celebrated as national titles, and treated as national titles. This has nothing to do with your abstract concept of "politicians".

And btw, I do not take it personal. I respectfully disagreed with what you said answering Capo, and you asked me "Let me ask you a thing. Do you really know anything about Brazilian football or do you only repeat what people say and care if it is good or not for your team?". Do not try to be a victim now.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:07 pm
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We didnt have 11 states on the last Brasileirão. We have all states and all clubs are able to participate. They are just separated on different divisions!

Hahahhaha... how can we have 27 states inside a championship with 20 clubs.

What are you talking about? Really?

Also, about my posts in the blog I changed my opinion on most of them. You can also do this studying a little bit more.

One more thing, for the North and Northeast clubs, Taça Brasil was the most important competition at that time. It was just different for the elite clubs.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:17 pm
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That's true. But I don't think it's relevant for this conversation. Europeans often say that UEFA teams don't care about the Interclub World Cup. Still, Corinthians, São Paulo and Internacional won world championships, right? So that's the point. And Santos (an elite club) always were very proud of their five titles.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:33 pm
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guilermerr wrote:
That's true. But I don't think it's relevant for this conversation. Europeans often say that UEFA teams don't care about the Interclub World Cup. Still, Corinthians, São Paulo and Internacional won world championships, right? So that's the point. And Santos (an elite club) always were very proud of their five titles.


Yes. Thats the point, for the Brazilian the World title is important and for us is relevant, maybe it is considered the most relevant title on our history. All clubs is proud of it and it trully means a lot for us.

But ask the English or German supporters if they care about it, eventough it is the only world competition they have. For they, it doesnt matter, because those competition doesnt show the truth.

I mean, being a world competition doesnt mean anything. Same for Taça Brasil that was the only one national competition we had.

I think the difference between Brazilians and Europeans is that they dont change the true history, at least not like us. Now, there are a lot of foreigners giving valeu for Taça Brasil and dont give a shit for the Rio-São Paulo tournament, even the second being more important.

What I am saying, there is a lie being sold and we have to be extra carefully because it is sold by the official federation. The history is being changed continuosly and the new generation is forgeting the truth.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:38 pm
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Well, I don't think that recognizing national titles is denying history, much less denying the importance of the Rio-São Paulo Cup and the state championships. We, Brazilians who love football, must explain to the new generations (or to the world, although personally for me it doesn't make much difference) the importance of state championships in the past decades (and yeah, they are more important them Taça Brasil or Robertão), but this does not negate the glory of the teams that won (and already considered themselves) national champions. There are many documents (news, images, etc.) showing that the feeling that these teams and the population had was that they were national champions and that this was something important.


Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:47 pm
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