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Jorge Gibson BROWN 1900-1904 | 1905-1911
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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Era: 1900-1904Name: Jorge Gibson Brown Nickname: "El gran Jorge Brown" Country:  Argentina Club: Alumni Position: * SS, CF, CMFSide: RF/BS Age: 20-24 years (03/04/1880) Height: 178 cm? Weight: 75 kg? Attack: 84Defence: 74 Balance: 81Stamina: 75Top Speed: 84Acceleration: 83Response: 78Agility: 80Dribble Accuracy: 80Dribble Speed: 77Short Pass Accuracy: 76Short Pass Speed: 72 Long Pass Accuracy: 75Long Pass Speed: 71 Shot Accuracy: 85Shot Power: 87Shot Technique: 80Free Kick Accuracy: 70 Curling: 73 Header: 81Jump: 82Technique: 81Aggression: 90Mentality: 91Goalkeeper Skills: 50 Team Work: 78Injury Tolerance: ACondition: 6Weak Foot Accuracy: 6Weak Foot Frequency: 6Consistency: 7Growth Type: Standard CARDS: P10 Box to Box P19 Chasing Back S03 1-on-1 Finish S05 1-touch Play SPECIAL ABILITES: 1on1 Scoring - Dribbling Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Era: 1905-1911Name: Jorge Gibson Brown Nickname: "El gran Jorge Brown" Country:  Argentina Club: Alumni Position: * CB, SB, DMFSide: RF/BS Age: 25-31 years (03/04/1880) Height: 178 cm? Weight: 75 kg? Attack: 77Defence: 80Balance: 81Stamina: 73 Top Speed: 77Acceleration: 76Response: 78Agility: 76Dribble Accuracy: 80Dribble Speed: 77Short Pass Accuracy: 75Short Pass Speed: 72 Long Pass Accuracy: 75Long Pass Speed: 71 Shot Accuracy: 80Shot Power: 84Shot Technique: 80Free Kick Accuracy: 70 Curling: 73 Header: 81Jump: 82Technique: 81Aggression: 90Mentality: 91Goalkeeper Skills: 50 Team Work: 78Injury Tolerance: ACondition: 6Weak Foot Accuracy: 6Weak Foot Frequency: 6Consistency: 7Growth Type: Standard CARDS: P10 Box to Box P19 Chasing Back S05 1-touch Play S08 Slide Tackle SPECIAL ABILITES: Sliding - Dribbling Attack/Defence Awareness Card: Attack Minded INFO:Recognized as the first great Argentine football player in history, and the first great legend, Jorge Gibson Brown was the best of the Brown brothers, those brothers who dominate Argentine football in the Alumni club, winning more than a dozen titles. As the chronicles of the time highlight, Jorge was a gentleman, the perfect footballer; physically strong, technical, fast, powerful shot, good with both feet, great scorer and above all, versatile. He started as a midfielder, and then became a center forward. In 1905 he changed his position to defender, alternating between the left and the right, being the best in each position he played. All this while worshiping an incredible number of goals, some 190 in 347 games. Such was his physical strength and mentality that, after suffering a concussion in the middle of a match, after colliding with the goalkeeper in 1904, he got up after 15 minutes and continued playing, so as not to leave his team with one less. Beyond these anecdotes, Jorge was the first great idol of the Argentine national team, being the captain from 1908 to 1912.
Last edited by Argentinaproject on Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:25 am |
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Biondi
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:45 pm Posts: 112
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wasn't he like Charles as playstyle ? having both attack and defence over 80 is absurd, I think just two players on this forum ever reached such stats. I also found no datas of him playing as a midfielder. I suggest his main position to be a striker, secondary as a cd, defense downgrade to 70 and attack upgrade to 88
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Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:46 am |
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Interista93
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 am Posts: 4512
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I also don't understand BAL 76 for a player described as physically strong. And TW 85 is too high for a player with average passing stats and no mention of him being constantly good at getting into favourable positions to receive passes. RES below 80 as well makes little sense given that he was a fast striker.
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Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:41 pm |
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ttt1009
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:05 am Posts: 145
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Alumni is a club derived from English former high school students (that's why its name is Alumni) and they were the most 'English' (or British in general) club at that time in Argentina. It would be possible that they focused much more in dribbling and long ball (which were fashionable in England at that time) so may be TEC should be lowered a bit more comparing to DA. And according to some books they played quite like the 'Amateur' footballer in England at that time, which means they didnt head the ball so often, then shooting, dribbling, physique and speed should be his main weapons. Additionally, I think CON should be 4-5.
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Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:13 pm |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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Biondi wrote: wasn't he like Charles as playstyle ? having both attack and defence over 80 is absurd, I think just two players on this forum ever reached such stats. I also found no datas of him playing as a midfielder. I suggest his main position to be a striker, secondary as a cd, defense downgrade to 70 and attack upgrade to 88 The thing is that he started out as a complete midfielder, he advanced to being an SS, resulting in a CF, a very high scorer for the time. But then he ended up playing as a defender on the right, after trying on the left. The press of that time mentioned him as the best in the country in every position he played, that's why I decided on those stats. There are some data that today are almost impossible to find online, since they are from books that only exist physically.
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Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:25 am |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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Interista93 wrote: I also don't understand BAL 76 for a player described as physically strong. And TW 85 is too high for a player with average passing stats and no mention of him being constantly good at getting into favourable positions to receive passes. RES below 80 as well makes little sense given that he was a fast striker. I chose those passing stats more than anything because of the technique, I doubt he had a great passing technique, in any case, I'm going to lower his TW and raise his BAL a little.
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Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:29 am |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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ttt1009 wrote: Alumni is a club derived from English former high school students (that's why its name is Alumni) and they were the most 'English' (or British in general) club at that time in Argentina. It would be possible that they focused much more in dribbling and long ball (which were fashionable in England at that time) so may be TEC should be lowered a bit more comparing to DA. And according to some books they played quite like the 'Amateur' footballer in England at that time, which means they didnt head the ball so often, then shooting, dribbling, physique and speed should be his main weapons. Additionally, I think CON should be 4-5. Although it's true that Alumni was a very english team, it stood out among the others for implementing "creole football", resulting in a mix between the argentine style itself and the english one. The Argentine style complemented the "dribble" very well with the association game, and the strong energy and passion that the players put into it.
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Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:33 am |
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Biondi
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:45 pm Posts: 112
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Argentinaproject wrote: Biondi wrote: wasn't he like Charles as playstyle ? having both attack and defence over 80 is absurd, I think just two players on this forum ever reached such stats. I also found no datas of him playing as a midfielder. I suggest his main position to be a striker, secondary as a cd, defense downgrade to 70 and attack upgrade to 88 The thing is that he started out as a complete midfielder, he advanced to being an SS, resulting in a CF, a very high scorer for the time. But then he ended up playing as a defender on the right, after trying on the left. The press of that time mentioned him as the best in the country in every position he played, that's why I decided on those stats. There are some data that today are almost impossible to find online, since they are from books that only exist physically. what about making two different sets ? one for his early striker career and one for his cb late years
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Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:17 am |
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Nacho1605
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:21 pm Posts: 342 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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I agree. 11 years is too long for a set. Especially for a player in amateur Argentina - the game was still developing back then and the players evolved with the game.
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Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:50 pm |
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ttt1009
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:05 am Posts: 145
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Argentinaproject wrote: ttt1009 wrote: Alumni is a club derived from English former high school students (that's why its name is Alumni) and they were the most 'English' (or British in general) club at that time in Argentina. It would be possible that they focused much more in dribbling and long ball (which were fashionable in England at that time) so may be TEC should be lowered a bit more comparing to DA. And according to some books they played quite like the 'Amateur' footballer in England at that time, which means they didnt head the ball so often, then shooting, dribbling, physique and speed should be his main weapons. Additionally, I think CON should be 4-5. Although it's true that Alumni was a very english team, it stood out among the others for implementing "creole football", resulting in a mix between the argentine style itself and the english one. The Argentine style complemented the "dribble" very well with the association game, and the strong energy and passion that the players put into it. It is surprising that you mentioned "creole" style was ever implemented in Alumni AC, I'm not good in Spanish (so couldn't check if it was written differently in Spanish or not), but from what I can read in English, all the Brittish-community clubs were excluding Creole people at that time. And the player in your set here - Jorge Brown was the one who later in 1920s criticised Creole style focusing too much on individualism and artistic aspects of the game, and forgetting its primitive enthusiasm.
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Fri Jan 17, 2025 1:26 am |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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Biondi wrote: Argentinaproject wrote: Biondi wrote: wasn't he like Charles as playstyle ? having both attack and defence over 80 is absurd, I think just two players on this forum ever reached such stats. I also found no datas of him playing as a midfielder. I suggest his main position to be a striker, secondary as a cd, defense downgrade to 70 and attack upgrade to 88 The thing is that he started out as a complete midfielder, he advanced to being an SS, resulting in a CF, a very high scorer for the time. But then he ended up playing as a defender on the right, after trying on the left. The press of that time mentioned him as the best in the country in every position he played, that's why I decided on those stats. There are some data that today are almost impossible to find online, since they are from books that only exist physically. what about making two different sets ? one for his early striker career and one for his cb late years That's a good idea
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Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:41 am |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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ttt1009 wrote: Argentinaproject wrote: ttt1009 wrote: Alumni is a club derived from English former high school students (that's why its name is Alumni) and they were the most 'English' (or British in general) club at that time in Argentina. It would be possible that they focused much more in dribbling and long ball (which were fashionable in England at that time) so may be TEC should be lowered a bit more comparing to DA. And according to some books they played quite like the 'Amateur' footballer in England at that time, which means they didnt head the ball so often, then shooting, dribbling, physique and speed should be his main weapons. Additionally, I think CON should be 4-5. Although it's true that Alumni was a very english team, it stood out among the others for implementing "creole football", resulting in a mix between the argentine style itself and the english one. The Argentine style complemented the "dribble" very well with the association game, and the strong energy and passion that the players put into it. It is surprising that you mentioned "creole" style was ever implemented in Alumni AC, I'm not good in Spanish (so couldn't check if it was written differently in Spanish or not), but from what I can read in English, all the Brittish-community clubs were excluding Creole people at that time. And the player in your set here - Jorge Brown was the one who later in 1920s criticised Creole style focusing too much on individualism and artistic aspects of the game, and forgetting its primitive enthusiasm. Well, honestly I'm not aware of that interview. I can say that Alumni in its time was considered the only truly Argentine and 100% Creole team, having players born in the country (not all, but the majority considered themselves Argentine), and that they played a style different from the English one, where camaraderie, chivalry, team play (they were almost all brothers, "Alumni and the Browns were one"), and even individualism, players like Gottlob Weiss were totally selfish wingers, even Jorge Brown had the habit of dribbling past the forwards with his famous "turn" and going on the attack. But yes, Jorge Brown was an admirer of the English style, in fact in an interview (now retired) he talks about his excitement at having faced english teams, saying that we argentines should play more like them. Then it's true that the creole style was evolving, there being 3 branches, possession football (River Plate, Menotti, etc.), selfish and skillful (mostly replicated in the beginnings of Santa Fe football) and dirty play (reaching its exponent with Zubeldía in Estudiantes and later by Bilardo). If something defined Alumni and made it the best on the continent for a decade, it was its different game. The rest of the teams used to have more English and Scottish teams than anything else, a football that was more "english", Belgrano, Lomas, Quilmes, etc. That's more or less what I know, or could read in the newspapers of the time.
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Sat Jan 18, 2025 3:30 am |
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ttt1009
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:05 am Posts: 145
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Dont want to disturb you, but you really need to recheck your sources, besides your understanding of pes stats as Mod and other users mentioning. https://deporteanews.com/estilo-y-virtudes-masculinas-en-el-grafico-la-creacion-del-imaginario-en-el-futbol-argentino/Quote: Sin lugar a dudas el proceso de criollización no sólo se dio en Buenos Aires, como he observado anteriormente, pero fue más relevante en el fútbol de esta ciudad por el peso de los equipos y la tradición de los colegios «británicos». Jorge Brown, el jugador modelo del Alumni y del seleccionado argentino de comienzos de siglo, comenta que el estilo «criollo» de 1921, «más fino y artístico», es diferente del estilo de Alumni, que era «más brusco, pero viril, hermoso, pujante» (El Gráfico, 1921, 107: 11). En 1924, al comentar los éxitos del fútbol rioplatense, expresa que hay que «vigilar al fútbol (argentino)… a fin de que las virtudes latinas tengan su complemento con la perfección de la técnica británica» (La Nación, 10-6-1945: 5). Brown reconocía los cambios y la presencia de un estilo y de virtudes que no eran originalmente británicas y que Alumni representaba. En consecuencia, el imaginario de El Gráfico era compartido incluso por actores privilegiados y con cierta autoridad como Jorge Brown. Quote: A partir de 1928 El Gráfico desarrolla la teoría de las dos fundaciones del fútbol argentino: la primer fundación será británica y la segunda será criolla. Uno de los argumentos utilizados alude al origen étnico de quienes lo practicaban en los equipos más famosos y, a la vez, integraban el equipo nacional. En la fundación británica, desde 1887 hasta 1912 -cuando se quiebra la hegemonía del club Alumni, el «glorioso club británico»-, los jugadores de origen británico predominan: Quote: Para 1928 lo «criollo» ha adquirido características propias. La «fundación» del «estilo criollo» tiene que tener una fecha, un actor y un evento preciso: el Racing Club que en 1913 desaloja como campeón al Alumni, el club hegemónico por años y años, representante no sólo de la «fundación» británica del fútbol sino también del «estilo británico». Uno puede concebir un estilo propio de jugar al fútbol como algo realmente imaginario, pero, por lo general, sale de la comparación con otros estilos como los textos arriba citados lo indican9. Sin embargo, entre 1913 y 1928 transcurren quince años y es posible imaginar que el pasaje del estilo británico al criollo se fue haciendo de un modo paulatino. En esa transformación la mirada del «otro lejano», los europeos, y del «otro cercano», los uruguayos, será importante.
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Sun Jan 19, 2025 4:25 pm |
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Argentinaproject
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:23 am Posts: 35
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ttt1009 wrote: Dont want to disturb you, but you really need to recheck your sources, besides your understanding of pes stats as Mod and other users mentioning. https://deporteanews.com/estilo-y-virtudes-masculinas-en-el-grafico-la-creacion-del-imaginario-en-el-futbol-argentino/Quote: Sin lugar a dudas el proceso de criollización no sólo se dio en Buenos Aires, como he observado anteriormente, pero fue más relevante en el fútbol de esta ciudad por el peso de los equipos y la tradición de los colegios «británicos». Jorge Brown, el jugador modelo del Alumni y del seleccionado argentino de comienzos de siglo, comenta que el estilo «criollo» de 1921, «más fino y artístico», es diferente del estilo de Alumni, que era «más brusco, pero viril, hermoso, pujante» (El Gráfico, 1921, 107: 11). En 1924, al comentar los éxitos del fútbol rioplatense, expresa que hay que «vigilar al fútbol (argentino)… a fin de que las virtudes latinas tengan su complemento con la perfección de la técnica británica» (La Nación, 10-6-1945: 5). Brown reconocía los cambios y la presencia de un estilo y de virtudes que no eran originalmente británicas y que Alumni representaba. En consecuencia, el imaginario de El Gráfico era compartido incluso por actores privilegiados y con cierta autoridad como Jorge Brown. Quote: A partir de 1928 El Gráfico desarrolla la teoría de las dos fundaciones del fútbol argentino: la primer fundación será británica y la segunda será criolla. Uno de los argumentos utilizados alude al origen étnico de quienes lo practicaban en los equipos más famosos y, a la vez, integraban el equipo nacional. En la fundación británica, desde 1887 hasta 1912 -cuando se quiebra la hegemonía del club Alumni, el «glorioso club británico»-, los jugadores de origen británico predominan: Quote: Para 1928 lo «criollo» ha adquirido características propias. La «fundación» del «estilo criollo» tiene que tener una fecha, un actor y un evento preciso: el Racing Club que en 1913 desaloja como campeón al Alumni, el club hegemónico por años y años, representante no sólo de la «fundación» británica del fútbol sino también del «estilo británico». Uno puede concebir un estilo propio de jugar al fútbol como algo realmente imaginario, pero, por lo general, sale de la comparación con otros estilos como los textos arriba citados lo indican9. Sin embargo, entre 1913 y 1928 transcurren quince años y es posible imaginar que el pasaje del estilo británico al criollo se fue haciendo de un modo paulatino. En esa transformación la mirada del «otro lejano», los europeos, y del «otro cercano», los uruguayos, será importante. It doesn't bother me at all, I always like to talk about football. What I see in that article are many errors, and many others in the citations to "El Gráfico", for example; Gottlob Weiss was german, not english (a rather selfish player, by the way), many others were not english but scottish, he also says that Alumni did not have "creoles" when Croce, Buruca Laforia (literally he was spanish), Coste, Faccione, Frediani, Garay, Tomás González, Uriburu García, Domingo García, Reyna, Otamendi, Peluffo, etc played in the club. It is also ironic that they refer to Alumni as an English club when they were mostly of scottish descent (Watson Hutton being scottish), and this is important to note because the club was directly influenced by the scottish style, which was distinct from the english style that other Argentine clubs had such as Quilmes. Even so, it's called the first creole team for being the first to have a team born in Argentina, in addition to having its own style, the basis of the Creole style. Quote: “The English High School style seems to be its own style, with its high and strong shots, saving rejections, breaking combinations...” The Standard, press of the time Quote: “...nothing that deserves criticism is tolerated in silence. Neither the defective way of placing the foot, nor the inappropriateness of the pass, nor the excessive dribbling, much less the inclination to personal display. In this Mr. Watson Hutton and his collaborators were also inflexible. Be careful with taking the final shot when another colleague was better located! The reprimand was accompanied by the most terrible punishment for the boys: they were forbidden to play!...” Escobar Bavio What I mean by all this is that Alumni was the creole style: association, dribbling, physicality, and above all passion. This is what always defined our style, and what was replicated later, with different aspects. I quote my sources, you might want to take a look at them out of interest: Alumni, el mito by Martín Emanuel Vita • Alumni, cuna de campeones y escuela de hidalguía by Escobar Bavio (The most important source and book of Alumni) and some newspaper clippings from "El Diario", "The Standard", etc... 
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